EOWG Home Page
Chair: Judy Brewer
Last updated: January 8, 2000
Scribe/Encoder: Gregory J. Rosmaita
Comments to Judy Brewer: <jbrewer@w3.org>
JB: agenda is "hot off the press"--are there any additions?
// NOJB: we haven't met since December 3, so what have people been doing? what upcoming or recent presentations have you done, and did anything interesting come out of it?
GF: gave web access presentation at Web Boston; going down to Public Broadcasting System (PBS) headquarters in Virginia to talk to producers of online content at PBS
JB: how did first one go?
GF: well, had a decent crowd of 12; not bad for these things; concentrated mostly on multimedia
JB: anyone else?
JT: met with someone developing web site for Christian Science Center here in Boston; expressed willingness to consider accessibility in process of redesign; met at beginning of December along with a colleague; don't know if they actually took our suggestions, though
JB: do you want to ping them to find out?
JT: will follow up, but didn't get commitment to have us approve results; very informal
JB: one should always presume it is OK to follow up; sometimes takes some nudging
HB: do it!
WL: trying to start up the corporate ladder with the American Association of Retired Persons' site; AARP is one of largest lobbies in the USA; web site is thuroughly unusable--not only accessibility problems, but rife with just plain usability problems
HB: that's probably because they are a group with a bias towards "young elders"
JB: follow up on contact there; may need them to work with us on other things, will let WL know if
// Daniel Dardallier (DD) joins
JB: DD please introduce yourself to our newest member, Kathleen
DD: I work for W3C in France and am technical manager for the WAI
KA: I work in the State of Connecticut's comptroller's office
JB: any other outreach updates?
HB: following up on mention of major work being done in New York state
JB: check the Policies Relating to Web Accessibility page--the scoop is that
the director of the New York State Office for Technology has been
working with the state's tech office for 5 years; recently began
working on web accessibility; had policy drafted, wanted W3C staff
member to come in and do a briefing on conformance levels; Chuck
Letourneau did so on behalf of WAI; presentation, including slides,
went over well, the actual policy is linked-to from the "US
States" section of the policy page:
<http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Policy#NY>
Scribe's Note: the direct URI for the New York State web accessibility policy is:
<http://www.irm.state.ny.us/policy/99-3.htm>
WL: now that we are down to four viable candidates for the US presidential election it would be interesting to drop notes about web accessibility into the individual candidates' web sites' suggestion boxes
JB: good for US folks; I am currently talking with the folks currently in the White House about renewed attention on web accessibility
// Chuck Letourneau (CL) joins
JB: Chuck, please introduce yourself
CL: President, Starling Access Services, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
JB: just missed update on NY State update; you'll be glad to know that I linked the relevant info to the WAI Policies page last night
HB: thank you, Chuck, for your work on that
KA: would the opinion piece I wrote for civic.com qualify as outreach?
JB: yes, tell the group about that
KA: Civic.com is a web site for IT professionals in state and local governments; every month, they feature an op-ed column called "First Person"; they asked me to write 700 words on web accessibility in Connecticut; background: Connecticut started a committee 6 months ago specifically to address web accessibility and tp do outreach with state webmasters
JB: can you send the URL for the article to the list?
KA: Civic.com has given us permission to reproduce on our own site while they undergo reconstruction; I will send the URL to the list
Scribe's Note: Kathleen's article, "Make the Internet Accessible for All" can be found at either:
<http://www.civic.com/pubs/1999/dec/civ-firstperson-12-06-99.html>
or <http://www.cmac.state.ct.us/access/news/civicpiece.htm>
JB: are there any specific policies, or policies under development, in Connecticut to which we can link?
KA: yes, the committee has its own web site, will post the URL for that to the list, too
JB: where is committee hosted?
KA: the Connecticut Management Advisory Committee (CMAC) Web Site Accessibility Subcommittee isn't, strictly speaking, a state agency;
// ACTION KA: post URL for article and CMAC to EO list
Scribe's Note: the CMAC Web Site Accessibility Subcommittee's web space can be found at:
<http://www.cmac.state.ct.us/access>
while Connecticut's Universal Website Accessibility Policy for State Websites, Version 3.1, can be found at:
<http://www.cmac.state.ct.us/access/policies/access.html>
JB: I've been meaning to put out a query on state tech act projects mailing list, asking other states to notify us if they have parallel actions going on in state tech project; do you participate in the National Association of State Information Resource Executives (NASIRE)?
KA: I'm on the emailing list, but haven't participated in any meetings
JB: I want to query head of NASIRE to see if I could send around a request for info from NASIRE members; Chuck, would you please give a summary of your big news?
Scribe's Note: CL's synopsis of the Canadian government's Web Accessibility Test Facility was not minuted at CL's request--instead, the following synopsis was copied from CL's post on the topic to the EO mailing list, which is archived at:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2000JanMar/0014.html>
CL: The Government of Canada, in its continuing effort to make its electronic information and on-line services accessible to all Canadians, has begun a pilot project operating a "Web site Accessibility Testing Service". The service is sponsored by the Chief Information Officer's Branch of the Treasury Board Secretariat, and hosted by the Enabling Resource Centre of the Public Service Commission. Government of Canada web masters or design teams can make an appointment to watch as persons using enabling technologies experience their designs under real-world conditions. Also on hand will be an expert in accessible Web site design to advise the client on how to make their designs conform to the Treasury Board's and W3C's Guidelines for universal accessibility. Provisions will be made for the evaluation team to be mobile should a client's design reside on a department's Intranet server or in an otherwise secure environment. The service, located in downtown Ottawa, will only be available to local Government of Canada organizations during the pilot phase. However, since the Enabling Resource Centre is fully equipped as a teleconference site, this service has the potential to be rolled out across the country.
JB: sounds great, congratulations!
// cheers for Chuck!
CL: site will also be formation of Canada's response to the call for a review group-- if WAI Review Group gets up and going
JB: item at end of agenda next meeting will focus directly on review group; commercial enterprises want review; number of volunteer pro bono groups that have expressed interest as well; started to put together a page that would link to and capture discussions and expressions of interest in reviews; want to pull together everything by sometime next week for review before meeting in 2 weeks; still a planning discussion; MRK has mentioned folks interested in Finland, may be a resource section -- develop appropriate processes
JA: Phil Jenkins and I did accessibility presentation at "Web Austin" -- traveling web road show; had 12 people turn out, all interested, asked good questions;
JB: what was target audience?
JA: was a general web conference; our presentation was part of the usability track
JB: people may recall at 3 December 1999 meeting that HB proposed may need to cancel Web4All day at XML; nevertheless, HB pulled together meeting with hosts and presenters, talked about last-minute promotion possibilities, only actually did 3 out of the five promotional strategies we came up with; the result was that we turned out a crowd that, at the high point, numbered 50; had some very dedicated people who stayed the entire day; point is, it sometimes takes one or 2 additional rounds of outreach to turn session into a success; we found that brightly colored fliers get people's attention; may always have to add an edge to a presentation about accessibility
HB: 2000 people gathered in Philly for XML and parallel web content development conference; JB got the presentation started off well, Mark Hakkinen of Productivity Works spoke on voice browsing and the Digital Talking Book (DTB) project; Janina Sajka of American Foundation for the Blind gave an outstanding presentation; Len Kasday did a great tools presentation; in my opinion, Janina's talk needs to be more widely distributed -- economic advantage of accessibility -- succinctly gathered
// ACTION JB, HB, and GJR: ping Janina for copy of talk
JB: had concerns about one or 2 parts where thought she was beating up on some developers; assuming that everyone in the commercial sector grubbing after money, saw some leaving the room during parts of that; some of message very powerful, some has stereotypes about people in industry; talked with her about it
HB: recommend that it be made available-- felt very powerful as is
JB: got a lot of response afterwards; a lot stayed afterwards
WL: can we do a similar thing at WWW9 in Amsterdam to publicize WAI items
JB: don't' have whole day track
WL: but we do have several programs
JB: ok
DD: made a bunch of presentations -- interviews in Oct with French journalists regarding accessibility and WAI; WAI presentation in Paris in Nov; beginning of this week did annual course on internet that highlights WAI -- mostly stuff in France
JB: did you use the curriculum
DD: no, not that detailed
// KA leaves
JB: received some input on before and after demos--funneled to CL, effected changes
JB: have had several requests to rotate times more; perhaps time format I used confusing; in any case, continue on every- other-week basis at 8:30 US EST Fridays and adding in Thursday meeting at 5pm US EST (1700 Boston time) to facilitate participation from East Asia, Australia, and US West Coast; hope for better time for folks in Europe, but haven't been able to figure out how to do it without too much juggling; of times listed, Jonathan stated would be able to attend at least 5 of the upcoming scheduled meetings; comments or discussion? of people who attend this call, are there 3 or 4 people who would be willing to overlap with Thursday time?
JB: well, that's certainly more than a critical mass! are your yesses in addition to, or instead of yesses?
WL, JA, GJR, HB, JT: in addition
GJR: would be able to attend more regularly on Thursdays than on Fridays
JB: will advertise this a bit on WAI-IG and elsewhere via private email
WL: Thursday meetings don't start until 2 weeks from yesterday, correct? no meeting next week, but 2 meetings the week after that, right?
// Karl Hebenstreit (KH) joins
WL: isn't it unlikely that we're going to have any overlap -- the same stuff on 2 different days? sounds to me as if there are only a few people who will only be at one or the other; let's get to work!
JB: I'm hoping that the Thursday meeting will focus on Outreach strategies and materials development, which are very badly needed in Japan and Australia; US West Coast people are doing some pretty interesting stuff that isn't getting discussed here, because they are under-represented; hoping agenda for Thursday driven by those who can't come at regular time; maybe a few of overlap folks may want to drop out of the Thursday meeting now; is anyone willing to check the times past the first few dates on the list to find out when Daylight Savings time kicks in? I think, but I'm not sure, that different parts of the world go on DST at different times... also, could someone do some error spotting on the time zones?
JA: first weekend in April in USA
JB: is this a good idea? anyone know any lists of contests? what are best ways to educate/influence contest coordinators? who wants to work on this wtih Marja?
// Silence
JB: given that a lot of this will be contests that don't address web accessibility should be titled contests on web design, and theme would be to get them to address accessibility
MRK: list of all contests?
JB: no, not all, but there are hardly any that do address, let alone focus upon, accessibility right now, so current page title is misleading, or will be, once we add in almost anything else
WL: any reason why shouldn't be all web design contests? don't we want them all to use accessibility as a criterion?
JB: if focus is influencing them, then should be
WL:it's a brilliant idea
JA: sent URL for "Air Austin" to the list
JB: Jim, what are your reactions to the page?
JA: been pairing non-profits with web design houses; 51% of points awarded based on accessibility, other 49% aesthetics and other things; always have more non-profits than web design people; looking at taking it on the road -- first stop, "Air Denver" -- looking as doing as marketing thing for charitable organizations; improvements seen since first year dramatic; getting second generation of accessible web sites; started new category -- "workovers" -- redesign of older sites, rather than starting from scratch
MRK: is there an evaluation criteria document available?
JA: will dig up -- have 5 PWDs judging; will work with MRK on this
JB: would be interesting if you could write up a few sentences that explain background and evolution of this for addition to the page -- show people how can develop something aimed at accessibility
MRK: try to get accessibility built into them highlighted, separate from general contests
JB: sounds good
KH: just finished reading Tim's book -- talks about visions of collaborative capabilities of groups via the web; there is a Stanford colloquium going on now focusing on Doug Engelhard's work; could talk about ideas that have been circulating; contests to try to implement those sorts of things; might be that there is a contest that W3C could sponsor and WAI focuses on accessibility oriented contests
HB: why split them?
KH: seems to me that there are issues like collaboration that pose challenges separate from accessibility -- don't want collaborative environments that are inaccessible
JB: want to get all web design contests to focus on accessibility; difference in level as well as scope; collaborative technologies still under development; web design contents focus on using existing technologies; you're talking about research and investigative projects to ensure accessibility is addressed; other reactions?
JT: given that there is an implicit review process, does it make sense to link activity with group that developed it;
MRK: link to review groups?
JT: share criteria used to evaluate; link to evaluation statement/criteria
// Jonathan Chetwynd (JC) joins
JB: good point; tried to work with Masters of the Web Folks, didn't know how to approach the whole thing -- was before WCAG finalized
WL: are they into how, rather than if?
JB: some of them, even if considering if, want to know how, which will decide the if
WL: what about Masters of the Web?
JB: well, was back in 1998; weren't sure how to build into judging criteria; looking for contest in 2000 (didn't have one in 1999) -- will check with executive director; having a few models helps
WL: has Kynn Bartlett chimed in on this?
JB: not yet
WL: seems to me that HWG might already have a list of contests
// KA rejoins
JB: grew out of discussions back in October '99; how much could we shrink this? would this kind of thing be useful as an audience-tailored entry to WAI materials?
WL: if going to make a quote an audience-tailored entry to WAI materials unquote, there are an awful lot of audiences to pick from
JB: one of many, but one that has come up repeatedly; should play around with ideas; other reactions?
WL: group that is least important to do this for
JB: context: December 3 meeting talking about UAGL will be finalized fairly soon and that there is a serious outreach problem; UAGL address mainstream UAs, but also rely on awareness and implementation efforts by AT developers, especially the DOM in order to interface with mainstream UAs; fairly pressing need for outreach; would give intro to relevant parts for UAGL
GJR: my conversations with several AT developers reveals a reluctance on the part of AT developers to implement a specification that has not yet been implemented by mainstream UAs; ATs are developed retrospectively; building an AT involves, to a greater or lesser extent, retrofitting applications--not only in order to make them accessible, but to plug holes in the mainstream application's code; most develop for the "B" version of a major new release of software, so that the initial bugs can be worked out of the mainstream application--or at least brought to light; meanwhile, what are the expectations of individual PWDs? UAGL has shifted dramatically since it was first announced as a W3C/WAI activity; need to address up front in the UAGL FAQ the expectations and misconceptions that have arisen in that timespan
HB: yes, GJR has a good point -- needs to be stressed in UA FAQ ATs supposed to piggy-back onto mainstream UA DOM
JT: what exactly is the DOM?
JB: generally speaking, the Document Object Model (DOM), describes the structure of a web page; DOM2 supports interface between browser and AT because it provides a mechanisms for providing a standard interface for event handling and so forth; similar in a way to an API (application program interface) that would go between an AT and an application to help the 2 interoperate better--if anyone wants to clean up my description, feel free; UAGL relies somewhat on the DOM, so we do need to start spreading the word about it
WL: points to fact that need some sort of end-reach thing in view of fact that one of largest audience we are to deal with are cognitively impaired; need to keep that on our awareness scope -- witness JC's post on XML; huge excluded body of people; need to think about including them; millions of people with so-called cognitive disabilities, slighted to a large extent
JB: I think that's a bit off-topic, and I want to get back on track;
GJR: Technical reference note on DOM needed; general so that interested parties can say "oh, so that is what the hullabaloo is all about!"
JB: good idea! sounds as if we need a volunteer to put background on list to spark discussion -- Gregory would you volunteer to do this? [laughs]
// ACTION GJR: post something to list explaining all of the hullabaloo over the DOM is about before next EO meeting (Thursday, January 20)
KH: why not a homepage for assistive technology developers in WAI space; tailor documents that they would be most interested in
JB: that's where we are heading with some of this; homepage or welcome mat for AT developers and other interested parties; quick paragraphs on giving people focus; tailored links to highlighted resources
KH: had meeting with Steve Berger and FOSE; have opportunity on April 18-20 to address these topics--I'll put a message on list describing it in full; Janet Reno (US Attorney General) will be keynote speaker
Scribe's Note: When queried about the acronym "FOSE", Karl described it thus:
It's the annual FOSE conference, which stands for Federal Office Systems Exposition, and is a long-running conference held in Washington as the event for mainstream software developers to provide awareness to the Federal government market. With the 508 requirements looming, this will be a good opportunity for us to get a consistent message out and move to get major players to endorse certain standards, which should make the assistive technology developers more comfortable that they will have a solid foundation to build their solutions. The conference will be on April 18-20. The FOSE website is located at: http://www.fose.com/
JB: I put out a query for more US State-level policies to Tech Act colleagues, and am thinking of breaking out a separate page for those; is that a good idea? also sent mail to Reidy Brown to inquire what he was compiling on universities; might behoove us to link to linking to a select batch of model policies, and then to an off-site comprehensive list of policies? seen some that are poor and some that are great; the other thing, I replied last night to Raphael Romero on some very good policy questions he had asked thinking of collecting some of that into a static page
Scribe's Note: Raphael Romero's comments are archived at:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2000JanMar/0036.html>
KA: could put together page of state policies if you'd like?
JB: yes, would love it
KA: am I the only state-level person in this group?
JB: yes--there are several WG members that work for the US federal governmental entities, but not state
KH: federal group has wing that works with state
JB: good to show in 2 places--top level (US federal) and as kick-off on state page
HB: are you familiar with WAI References Policies Page? that's the page that your material would go on
JB: actually a sub-page of that; have 3 there -- yank that onto your page
WL: should be a breakout list of disability rights people working towards this; would be useful; MediaTalk, ADAPT-L, etc. compile a list
JB: first develop strategies list, separately collecting or just linking to advocacy lists and groups; start out with discussion as in reply to Rafael; ultimately both, but start with first level
WL: ok
CL: Canadian policies look fine
JB: queried Max for policy links in Japan
JC: UK ones--government ones missing, have changed since draft; don't seem to be linked;
JB: are you sure? when did you last check? I included everything that July Howell sent me
JC: will have another look; noticed some sort of discrepancy
JB: one thing she sent was the Cabinet office press release; if you come up with something missing, send me the link; any closing comments?
// NO
JB: if anyone notices any bugs, please email me promptly at <jbrewer@w3.org> -- and could one or 2 people volunteer to do a bug check on it? need a quick turnaround, as I want to announce it in the next WAI Update
// ACTION HB and WL: review "Web Slides" intro within next 2 days
JB: regard Curriculum, CL and I talked yesterday, CL going to make a few updates to stylesheets before moving directly into WAI space and publicizing it
JT: screen reader behavior still reports a quote on some of the links
// DD leaves for another meeting
JB: GJR and Charles McCathieNevile diagnosed problem in October, but not sure that Massimo ever received notification, which is probably my fault--what are the problem spots again?
JA: from doc source, looks as if there might be a problem with all of the buttons
JT: not with my screen reader--it's the back link and next slide buttons, and something after "Change Style"
JB: will have Massimo check all of the buttons generated by the script
